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 jfoxtail posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 3:32 pm
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Does anyone know if one of the suppliments of Arnor had a consolidated timeline of events? I have all the old first edition material (Rangers, Thieves, Lost Realm )and Arnor - the land. i would be interested to know if "all" Arnor was consoldiated into one page so to speak
Secondly does the consolidated timeline give further expanded details on Tharbad and its reason to continue? I had always imagined Thardbad as a city similar to 13th century Ghent - weaving raw Arthedaini and Dunland exported wool much like the 3 century monopoly of Ghent on English wool. Under these conditions the role of the Gilds/Mistery is better explained. This would also explain the survival of Tharbad past 1974 as "bluenails' would continue to manufacture cloth for export even though the domestic economy was almost gone.
Good reference Henri Pirenne - Economic and Social History of Medieval Europe. |
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| shnar posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 2:47 pm
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I'll have to look at home, but as for Tharbad, I thought pretty much the great plague wiped it off the map? It was definately in ruins by the end of the Third Age (Boromir makes mention of crossing the river near those ruins and losing his horse on the way to Rivendell in Fellowship of the Ring), but for that too, I'd have to dig up my Tharbad manual to see what ICE's offical stance was on it's demise.
-shnar |
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| jfoxtail posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 2:42 pm
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The Lost Realms supplement suggests there "was a settlement in Tharbad at the time" of Rohan war with the Dunlendings - when Helm the sister son defeated .... "Whose side the Tharbadians fought on nobody knows".
I had always suspected that Tharbad would continue to be a fairly important mercantile centre up till the massive floods wiped out the bridges – much later in the third age.
Consider that much like Ghent they would have had a monopoly on raw wool Arthedaini wool - and latter flax for lined from the Shire. Clearly the Dwarves used Tharbad to trade iron, weapons, silver and "stuff" up till 2000. This probably caused tension between Arthedain and Khazad Dum – most evident in Tharbad. The dwarvish weapons would be perceived to end up in the hands of Arthedain's enemies. Arthedain obviously preferred trade with the Dwarves of Numeriador to Moria for more reasons than proximity.
The combined loss of the Arthedaini and Moria economy would gut a city like Tharbad - but one imagines that economic inertia would keep it afloat. Dunnish raw wool and flax would replace the Arthedaini supply - Cardolanian wool having disappeared in the internal wars of 1420 - 1700.
At this time Tharbad's declining prosperity would cause it to become more protectionist. The richer "capitalist gilds" would be gone and the Workers gild would run the show. The impoverished workers would be like a revolutionary committee running the city. They would forbid membership/citizenship. They might be so bold as to launch expeditions outside the city for 50 miles or so - to suppress any cottage industry that would compete with Tharbad. This further explains the de-population of North Cardolan.
Umbar certainly would not hesitate to trade with Tharbad during this era. A few pieces of pepper would buy nice linen for sails. Additionally, Gondor may not have played an active role in administrating Tharbad – but there is no question they would trade and buy off the locals from invading Calehendron. |
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| lann posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 4:24 am
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I think you are over-estimating Tharbads importance at this time. From around the mid 1600's onwards Tharbad was very much in decline and certainly by the end of the Third Age it was little more than flooded ruins.
I'm not saying that your theories couldn't exsist, it's just that the evidence very much points in the opposite direction.
lann |
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| jfoxtail posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 2:02 pm
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I agree it is speculative but only to a point.
Tharbad is a city of nearly 30,000. If you assume that 1 in 2 people died of the plague, and further assume that a number of residents migrated away – up to 2/3rds the population – that still leaves it a population base of around 10,000.
In Medieval terms a city of 10,000 is still a huge economic machine. They would trade and manufacture for food – for bare survival. The economic inertia still exists in that many Duns would still be drawn to the city as a market. The “manorial” land system of self-sufficiency would not survive - just as some form of economic revival happened in the 11th-12th-and 13th century after the collapse of Rome. Even Rome survived with a Papacy in Avingon for many years – as a relatively large and important center – a’ la Barbara Tuchman A Distant Mirror.
The Duns of Salarnin migrated southward but “…there were still people on the banks of the Gwaltho in Aragorn’s time…they became the Greenbank steadings…” They would be drawn to Tharbad with a few extra vegetables, and a few sacks of flour, if only to sell surpluses for cloth, salt, or some other herb found in the swanfleet marshes.
Further I reason that the ongoing depopulation of the Greenway, and Redway (Thalion/Metraith, Sarn Ford) is partially due to Tharbad. The Cities “protectionism” is based upon 14th century of Ghent – where the Weavers have declared Urban rights. Only cloth weaved in Ghent could be sold. The town sent out regular armed expeditions against neighboring villages and looms and fulling vats were carried away. Citizenship requirements got longer including items such as being of good birth– Henri Pirenne – from thread 1.
I speculate Tharbad continues to be a military (due to size of militia) and economic focus in the North right up till the time the bridges crash down. Then the center island would be flooded – the city in final ruins to match its long dragged out economic decline – the docks smashed. It would take a catastrophe of this magnitude to kill a Medieval city that had existed for 1800 years and longer. Especially given its advantages of defense from siege and position crossing a major geographic barrier. |
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I think Jfoxtail makes a very good point. And could form the basis of a clever bit of diplomatic campaigning.
Gavin |
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