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lann
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 7:14 am: |   |
When we think of Dwarves the image conjurs up many things - among them though has to be the trused axe by their side.
Can anyone explain to me then why in the Hobbit amongst all those Dwarves going off to kill a Dragon not one of them had an axe? |
turambur
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 9:22 am: | |
It was a kids story...maybe Axes and Warhammers are a little too...brutal  .
Jason |
Sulthon
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 9:29 am: | |
Hmmm...
Well back in his day the image of the "Dwarves" was not the image we had. I don't think Tolkien was working off an "image" cause he invented most of them! Which is what makes his works so sweet... |
lann
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 10:18 am: | |
But he created the image |
shnar
| | Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 12:03 pm: | |
As can be seen by reading the Hobbit, these dwarves went off half-cocked, not really thinking ahead as to what they were going to do when they got there, there being anywhere on their journey. Gandalf was the one who pushed the idea into Thorin to go back, and without his aide they wouldn't have made it past the trolls. None of them brought any weapons at all, and were only lucky they picked up such nice blades from Gondolin on the way (amazingly nice, point of fact).
I suppose they were hoping their Burglar would burgle some weapons before fighting Smaug...
-shnar |
turambur
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 2:27 am: | |
I've always had a problem visualizing Thorin with Orcrist. Thorin was probably under 4.5' tall, I would figure a legendary sword of Gondolin made in the First Age for "Elves of the West" would be close to 48" overall length...even figuring 42" it would be as high as Thorin's chin. He would just about have to pull his sword belt up to his neck to keep from dragging the scabbard on the ground .
On the Dwarf image presented in The Hobbit, we do have Thorin outfitting himself after Smaug's death:
"Royal indeed did Thorin look, clad in a coat of gold-plated rings, with a silver hafted axe in a belt crusted with scarlet stones."
When Thorin and Co. joined the fray in the BoFA:
"Thorin wielded his axe with mighty strokes, and nothing seemed to harm him."
On his death bed:
"There indeed lay Thorin Oakenshield, wounded with many wounds, and his rent armour and notched axe were cast upon the floor. He looked up as Bilbo came beside him."
So I guess he preferred an Axe of Dwarf-make over that pansy-Elf sword Orcrist .
Of Dain's folk:
"In battle they wielded heavy two-handed mattocks; but each of them had also a short broad sword at his side..."
So, the image is still there...Tolkien just didn't focus much on the martial aspects of the story, might have not seen them as proper for the audience he was targeting.
Jason |
shnar
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 10:23 am: | |
But didn't they bury Thorin with Orcrist? I guess he liked it a little bit. Maybe it was due to the height difference, and since it was so light, he never worried about wielding problems. Maybe we had both axes and the sword in BoFA.
At any rate, the point is still there that the dwarves weren't much for preplanning...
-shnar |
turambur
| | Posted on Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 1:58 am: | |
True...I don't recall anywhere prior to Thranduil's Kingdom that any other weapons outside of the sister-swords are mentioned (for the Dwarfs). At the capture by the Wood Elves it mentions that they were only armed with small knives...piss poor planning indeed .
Jason
yep...he was buried with Orcrist, probably just so he didn't have to return it to any pansy Elf :p . |
shnar
| | Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 11:35 am: | |
hehehe, yeah, that'd be Thorin. I could see them trying to take it away, and with his last breath, "No! I'll be cold and dead in the ground before I see this sword in the hands of an elf!"
-shnar |
Tolwen
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 6:12 am: | |
In UT Tolkien tells the story of the quest for Erebor. Here he mentions that it was on Gandalf's insisting that the Dwarves went unarmed and -armored.
Gandalf tells that Thorin was always thinking of revenge on Smaug, but only in dwarven ways: Battles, bright armor and sharp axes. Gandalf knew that this would fail and told Thorin he would have to go stealthily without typical dwarven armament or the quest would fail.
Tolwen |
lann
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 9:53 am: | |
Perhaps he too then realised what a 'faux paus' he made and tried to correct it later.
(note to self: how dare I criticise the master) |
shnar
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 1:01 pm: | |
No, I think the UT stuff was written before the Hobbit, but have to dig it up to make certain of that claim...
-shnar |
lann
| | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 2:58 am: | |
UT was written by his son Christopher from manuscripts made at different times. Only in 'letters from Tolkien' would you be able to glean any real time when that 'particular' entry had been written in UT.
Purist indeed. |
shnar
| | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 12:03 pm: | |
You mean UT was published by his son Christopher. Only thing he wrote were those weak-ass notes. However, you may be correct as to the times of the different tales. I cannot remember (book in storage right now) but I thought each tale had some indication in the footnotes about when it was written, and I was under the general impression that most of the 3rd age material was written before LotR...
-shnar |
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